Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 0:08
In this episode, I interview Scott Newton. Scott is a facilitator and stakeholder engagement strategist, his job and his superpower is to get very diverse people in the same room and get them to debate and come up with solutions while avoiding conflict. I’ve experienced Scott skills firsthand, I was very impressed by his calm and cheerful attitude, the tools he used and the processes he had put in place to allow the group to come to an outcome.

Scott, you are facilitatpr and stakeholder engagement strategist and you’ve worked with governments corporations and non-for-profits. You’ve worked with the law Council of Australia, the sydney city commissions, byron shire council, New Democracy and ats, sydney’s University of Technology. So, Scott, my first question for you is, how do you come to be a facilitator and stakeholder engagement strategy? What’s your journey like?

Scott Newton 1:13
Yeah, I think look, I don’t think there is a typical journey. Certainly the other facilitators I’ve met we all seem to kind of fall into it from a totally unrelated field. My my journey was studying public relations, communications and then doing some recruitment and marketing work for a while and then realizing that wasn’t really my stick. It wasn’t motivating me, inspiring me. So so we’re traveling for a while, came back and found a consultancy called Kj. And someone very special to me, Deborah Cameron, who was the facilitator for them, kind of welcomed me into the company and made the introduction and then I did a lot of work with her. And with Kathy Jones and Natalie Boyd and in Cali and others who I own my facilitation experience to within that consultancy, and, and yeah, so I just kind of got hands on experience, you know, their stakeholder engagement experts as a consultancy, they do everything from you know, government work including state government and local government to nonprofits, to corporates and across all different sectors. So, you know, education, health, legal, you know, transport related, it can be internal change management pieces, but it could also be board and strategy meetings, it’s all types so I kind of got a lot of experience that way helping and supporting and then eventually facilitating myself in that and then along the way trying to learn what the hell facilitation wants, you know, reaching out and getting some, you know, actual couple of day training programs and, and reading what material I could but I really learned that you can borrow things from all different sectors. So it can be you know, stuff from therapy stuff from, you know, group dynamics stuff from design thinking, you know, stay From conflict resolution, it’s all relevant. So you kind of borrow what is useful from all that and and apply it to the workshop setting. Yeah.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 3:08
Yeah, that’s what I find amazing. And what qualities you must have? Obviously, empathy is a big one.

Scott Newton 3:18
Yeah, I think empathy, I think you’re being genuine about believing in people. And that by supporting and empowering them, they can achieve something is crucial. If you don’t believe in people, then you’ve got a problem, I think as facilitator. Yeah, interpersonal skills is obviously part of it. I think that’s the one that people are most aware of, you know, being able to present and talk and connect with people build relationships, console, comfort, relax, all that kind of thing. I think humor is a useful thing. But obviously, not every facilitator leans on that. But then I think there’s a big design component, a strategic component, which I think sometimes people don’t always have a specific so tight. So it’s what? Yeah, what are the different parts of the system that we’re dealing with here? And and then borrowing from different design elements across different sectors and different areas of expertise to construct a design that is going to work. I think that design element is really important. So I think if you’re someone who’s sitting at a dinner table, and people are arguing about something, and you’re thinking, Man, there’s some common elements here that we could really take. And then if we took that and just kind of chatted about ideas that help support that thing, then we could get to a solution. If you kind of thinking there’s a better way to have this conversation, then I think that’s you’re the right fit for facilitation. And if you’re happy at the idea that a group could achieve something great while you’re standing back, and that everyone thinks that they’re brilliant, and doesn’t necessarily say the role that you played, I think if you happy with that, the fact that they get the credit, not you, I think… Then you’re in a good position to be facilitator. Yeah, I think those are, those are some key skills. And look, one that people don’t talk about often is, is the organization of information because you’re not, you do not need to be an expert in content. And quite frankly, if you try to be, it’s a problem, because you should be spending your efforts elsewhere. So because you’re focused on process, people are going to be talking about things that you know nothing about. So being able to organize information in your head, to be able to hear something and go, that is more important than this piece of information that’s coming through or that thing they just said, is, is one of a list of three things that falls in this category, that kind of almost spatial organizing of information. I know it sounds very abstract when I talk about it like that, but but being able to being comfortable dealing with information you’re not an absolute expert in but still being able to organize that somehow is I think another key skill to be able to guard a great For I’m yet to work out how you learn that. But I imagine that that’s part of the comprehension stuff that we do in language when we’re younger. But yeah, I think that’s that’s an important skill.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 6:11
Okay, so when when structures call you governments and corporations and NGOs, from all sectors in all industries, what kind of problems do they come with?

Scott Newton 6:22
problems? God, look, it’s so wide ranging, I think, as I said, One type is, is there’s a decision to be made. So often that’s where government comes. So government is trying to decide, you know, where do we invest certain money, or what kind of you know, what kind of decision to make for a particular location. So it could be, you know, master planning planning processes for a town or a city or a single site. It can be that they’re trying to get suggestions for improvement, so it could be a video being exercised with the trying to understand, okay, well, what can we achieve in the future? What can we learn from the past and pulling experts stakeholders together for that? And it can be controversial. Like sometimes we’ve got people coming in because suddenly has blown out, perhaps stakeholders haven’t been managed as well as they would have liked. And they,

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 7:19
yes, that’s the stuff I like.

Scott Newton 7:21
Yeah, right. You might like conflict resolution kind of stuff. So I think I look, I’m not a conflict resolution manager, that’s not my stick. I think I try and come into it with just as positive approach as possible in the sense that if, if we can all agree on some common ground and a common objective, then we’ll naturally work together. So my job is to kind of find that common point. But But yeah, I think look, we are pulled in sometimes particularly as facilitators, where things have gotten to a point where they need to bring everyone into a room and and really try and make the relationships more constructive and work through some stuff. So so we can be brought together for that as well.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 7:57
So you may or you do enter rooms sometimes where you can already feel the energy of the conflict in the atmosphere?

Scott Newton 8:08
Yeah, absolutely. I think what we try and do is get involved as early as possible with the design and preparation for that session, because there’s a lot you can do to address that before you’re even in the room. I think it’s a facilitator, you don’t want to surprise you don’t want to walk into a room and suddenly find that it’s thick with tension. So so you know, we’ll talk to the client and we’ll ask the right questions to understand what those dynamics are going to be beforehand will often reach out to that other stakeholders. So we’ll talk to them and try and understand their perspectives on the issue. So I think as much as possible, we try and make sure that yeah, if we do walk in a room with a stick with tension, which we have before, that we’ve done as much as we can before we even start to to make it as productive as possible.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 8:48
I understand. I’ve asked you what kind of problems do people come with. What kind of solutions do you offer? When you pitch to those structures, what it is that you offer, how do you explain it?

Scott Newton 9:06
Let me give you example. So if we’re having a conversation about palliative care, and we’ve got doctors, nurses, patients, we’ve got paramedics, we’ve got other experts in the room volunteers. They are the ones who in the best position to have a productive conversation, man paid of care, and they’re the ones who are going to identify what’s working and what isn’t and what can be done. So I’ll our offering is not content, right? It’s just about how do we guide and unlock that room. So I think, I guess the analogy is a Coke is that we can create the right kitchen environment, the space for it. So our expertise is in understanding what they’re trying to achieve and packing that and making sure the space is conducive to that. But then it’s about employing I guess the tools, whether it’s the utensils or whatever that we need to kind of guide the group to through what they need. So for example, if people were to say to me, you know, We want to understand, you know, what isn’t isn’t working and and you know how we can, you know, improve things into the future for something like palliative care. Our job is to go Okay, well, how do we break that down as a logical, logical conversation? So could be that, first we need to understand, you know, what is working now, you know, what do people feel positive about and starting on that positive note, and then having a separate conversation around what maybe isn’t working as well. And then perhaps identifying, for example, some principles of what are the key things that they feel are working quite well? Or, you know, where the opportunity sit and then having facilitating some deeper dive design brainstorming activities where they’re actually unpacking? Okay, what are some examples of how we could actually act on that and make some different ideas. So I think we try and give them the framework. First of all, because we’re, we’re independent to the content, so we’re in a better position to do that. But then we look at what tools and activities we’ve got at our disposal so you can pull everything from appreciative inquiry which is a way of kind of framing that current In a future conversation, we could use design thinking techniques to identify the problem and then prototype different solutions. We could pull on gamification elements. So we can make it quite a fun exercise. So you know, pulling together, there’s, you know, even Lego has created a facilitators tool kit that you can use in these conversations. So looking at, yeah, what games and activities we can use to draw out that information. So I think our offering is in that piece. And then the final thing in kind of that cookie analogy, is the actual cooking, right. So I think we’re fortunate in that we’ve certainly developed skills as facilitators to employ those utensils and things effectively. So that’s where, yeah, conflict resolution, that interpersonal skills, the, you know, helping draw out people’s input in the room, all that kind of stuff comes into play. So I think that’s, that’s where we’re really just pitching ourselves as facilitators in that once we’ve designed the process, it’s worth having us in the room because we can adapt and adjust in the moment to kind of get the best out of that design.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 12:00
Wow, pretty amazing that one of my questions was actually what facilitation, what facilitation strategies, tools and exercises you use. I’ve seen a few when we did the, the byron model, which you were facilitating, and you were amazing.

Scott Newton 12:19
That was really good.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 12:20
Yeah. Not too much conflict. It was okay. Unfortunately, but yeah, I saw some great tools that you use that you could could you give us an insight on your favorite ones?

Scott Newton 12:36
My favorite one? Look, something that we used in that process, which I’m a big believer in for a number of reasons. And I should emphasize that these tools are, it’s all about strategically applying them right. So I’m not going into situations trying to use a particular tool over and over again, it’s just about well, what are we here to achieve and then what to best serve that But I think one that I found has been relevant quite a lot, which I used in that session was associate grant. So associate grant, for example, is, is a scale, a Likert scale that you’re asking people to vote on when they’re providing feedback on something. So for example, someone puts out with the bar and model someone makes a suggestion in that workshop. And rather than just throwing that around the room for discussion, or having people go on and like that, and I like that or whatever, in a haphazard kind of way, you ask people to stand along the spectrum. So at one end, they’ve got I love it. Great idea. Yeah. I love it. I like it. I could live with it. As a suggestion, I lamented or I load it. And then another spot that we have for questions. Maybe you need to ask more questions before you can vote. what’s beautiful about it is when people stand along that spectrum. People quite honest. So people have been found apparently so I’ve heard to confess the murders and things on this scale because there’s something about They’re standing for, you know, where you sit on the scale, you know, we want to be honest to ourselves. But then when people start asking, Well, why are you standing where you’re standing, people also feel the need to justify where they are. So they will reveal things that maybe they hadn’t intended when they first stood where they did. But what it means is that as a facilitator, it’s a great example of trying to read a whole room and not just have the noisy people talking all the time. And they play an important role. They help move things along, but you want to make sure you’re not losing everyone else. So what’s great about associate Graham is at one glance, you can see where where is everyone standing. And so if someone’s are, you know, either end of the spectrum, you can kind of ask them, you know, why are you standing where you’re standing? And what would it take for you to be more supportive of this idea, or whatever it is, and people shift and move along the scale as the conversation continues, you know, but I think it’s a really positive way to, to have a conversation and I think once again, the fact that there’s a scale that goes from a lot It to lock it to I could live with it and whatnot, also captures another element of what I love is facilitative, which is trying to find those gray areas, you know, often we’re so used to inherit political culture and having the binary, right, the black and white, the right and left wing or whatever it is. And I think the reality is humans are complicated and nuanced. And and our views on things depends on context. And so we should create tools that allow for that nuance. And I think that’s an example of where people can kind of show where they sit along the scale. Yeah, so I think that’s an example of a tool or lock. And, and other than that, I really, I really enjoy tools that allow people to find play, you know, when I’m not a facilitator, I manage a co working space for game developers. So I believe in play and I believe that adults too often give up play too early. And I believe that a lot of conversations that we’re having can be had in a really engaging fun way. So So for me, the other thing is trying to find ways to get mixed up. For example, we have workshop the other day, and we were talking about opportunities and, and barriers to achieving a vision. And rather than just writing that up on two pieces of butchers paper, the group was playing a game of snakes and ladders. So they’re moving around a room and putting Snakes and Ladders down and moving up and down, as they either got closer to or further away from the vision, you know, simple stuff like that really can create some fun in a conversation that still gets quality outputs.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 16:27
What’s the biggest benefit of gamification in those types of environments? Do you think? Does it real people get more relaxed and so that they express himself?

Scott Newton 16:37
Yeah, I think so. That’s absolutely part of it. And I think Yeah, part of his bet keeping people engaged over a long workshop particularly. But it’s also I think, there’s Look, there’s some theory and I can’t think of the exact example right now someone can correct us one time to whatever comments you’ve got. But there’s I think it could be you theory is what I’m thinking about, but the that you need to move into the uncomfortable or the different in order to discover something new. So if you just sit down and go, look, I already know everything about a problem. And I’m going to sit at my desk like I always do, and I’m going to come up with solutions, you’re going to come up with the same things I’ve come up with before, and they may or may not work if they haven’t previously. Whereas if you depart from the norm, if you you know, play something that is a game that gets you to think about something a bit differently, or if you’re exposed to external stimulus or other ways of thinking, then you go on a journey, you go into somewhere abstract or different, and you It’s refreshing. And then through that process, you’re more inclined to have be surprised by something. So I think people who play games in the workshops that I do, can often emerge with something that they wouldn’t have come up with by more traditional means.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 17:49
Very interesting. Is there any popular facilitation resource you can recommend?

Scott Newton 17:56
Well, yeah, I recommend my favorite book. So my favorite bookies, don’t just don’t just do something stand there. It’s a great example because it shows it really takes that philosophy of you are not the center of it as facilitator, you are an enabler. So you are standing at the back of the room effectively, and you’re trying to have as little to do with the workshop as possible, and guide people through. And I remember one of my favorite moments in the bar and model, one that we did that year in is there was a point and I’ve got a photo of it on my phone that I show people every now and then where you were up the front, and you had the whiteboard and the marker and you were taking the group to a session, it was an impromptu session, you were showing them one of your, you know, theories and how it would apply to what we were looking at. And I think that’s that, to me is the moment as facilitator where you’re successful is not when I’m, you know, main handling a group through a problem, but it’s when the group is now taking a life of its own and it’s guiding its own way forward. And I’m just there to kind of feed it and support it and you know, nudge it if I need to, and I That books a great example of that. So it has really practical tools and examples, but also really unpack that philosophy in terms of the way you approach a room, but also the way that you think about your role in the room and and the quite critical of what you’re bringing to the table. So I would definitely recommend that as the main resource.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 19:18
Awesome. Definitely put it at the bottom of the article. Can you tell us one of your big success stories and one of your big failure stories?

Scott Newton 19:31
I’m gonna start with the failure because it’s more interesting to do it that way. So I had a I had a workshop, this is only How old is this? This is two weeks old. I think. I had a workshop two weeks ago, that was a whole lot of experts in a room who were very knowledgeable on a particular topic. So they were there because They were experts in something that, you know, I could only know so much about as a non expert in this area. And they were dealing with a particular example of a particular scenario. And it was also very specialized, you know, you know a lot about that, that that scenario you don’t. So it’s a classic example. It’s an extreme example of the fact that suicide is often not the content experts, right? So I didn’t know anything about the actual thing we’re working on. I was there to help with process. So I’d been pulled in quite late in the process. And they’d asked me to yet guide the room through I had developed a design for that room. That was effectively a framework for people to break out into small groups work through certain issues in a certain way. And we were going to identify, you know, what, what recommendations these different groups had, and the rationale that they had behind these recommendations. And what ended up happening was, I hadn’t done my research properly in advance. to how the different stakeholders in the room would react to that design. So what happened is that when we got there, people who, who we and the client had fully intended to kind of split up into the small groups wanted to be together. And and you know, they had a reasonably valid reason to be together, they felt that it was their job to confer as a group and present their recommendations. And so what that meant was now my design, which is entirely dependent on people splitting up wasn’t going to be possible. But what was really important to the client was that, that we didn’t just have that group of stakeholders go off and do something separately, they needed to be integrated somehow. So that meant that rather than just sending them off to the side and having different small groups, we all needed to stay together as one group. Because then that way, we still had everything mixed. You know, everyone was in together, but those people were still together. And so what that meant is that a workshop that was going to be very separated in the small groups where I wouldn’t have to touch the content too much because it’s facilitator. I would just have the recommendations before To the surface surface and capture them, I was now dealing with the nitty gritty of the conversation because it was everyone in a circle and a whiteboard. And they holding the marker as someone who knew very little about the subject. So I think, as a result, you know, it was quite challenging because I was having to do a lot of checking back with the group and saying, you know, is this Am I understanding this rod and, you know, checking back and, uh, you know, I built that into the process.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 22:25
Yeah the best strategy is to just repeat what the previous person said

Scott Newton 22:29
Right? Well, and this is a classic thing in facilitation is that use their words, right? So you don’t just do that. So you don’t sound like a fool. But it’s also because they’ve they worded things in a certain way that often is relevant to their industry and relevant to their understanding of the issue. So so I was making sure I was using their words as much as possible and not my own. But yeah, so look, I survived that one. And it went well enough, but I think it was definitely a failure in that if I had gone to stakeholders beforehand, and and said, Look, this is what I’m planning on doing, you know, does that work? For you, do you have any concerns, I would have identified that earlier. And I could have changed the design as a result. So I think as a result, I would definitely recommend that anyone who’s planning a meeting or a workshop, particularly one where they’re looking to kind of really design it up in a certain way to make sure that checking in with people, yeah, and making sure that everyone’s comfortable with it before they run it. And on a more positive note, I think that one of the workshops I’m most proud of was the law Council of Australia. And it was probably because this is a, you know, significant client. They it is, you know, they have Supreme Court judges and partners of law firms, the very senior people in Australia, coming together for a summit once a year to talk about, you know, the legal profession in Australia and how to move forward with it. And, and I was pitching to them, something that was quite uncomfortable to them, you know, it was rather than kind of just panel discussions and, and and kind of whole group presentations and maybe a little bit of talking amongst themselves. It was a highly designed workshop that had them up with posted notes around the room and had an illustrator in the corner who was graphically illustrating the conversation as we went, it had live polling on their mobiles, and we had interactive panel, small groups and report it was just all happening. And and, to their credit, you know, these people who were used to, you know, Manning, the big court rooms and having very rigorous, you know, approaches to things and quite traditional approaches, sometimes embraced it. And I think we worked really hard to make it happen. And it required all of Kj I it was it was a cast of thousands who were involved in the workshop. But But yeah, I think it was a big success. And I think to the point about you theory, I think they learned at some discoveries and some outcomes that they wouldn’t have if they just went about it the same way they always do. I think by mixing up the design of the conversation, we also mixed up the outputs. So it was really exciting. Yeah,

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 25:01
yeah. Awesome. Thanks for sharing. Good stuff. Moving on to different topic. I’d like to know what you’ve learned about the human nature in those because you end up in quite interesting situations. And I’m sure you you recognize some traits and difficulties and problematics in type of people that come back again, normal situation, I’d like to hear about it.

Scott Newton 25:24
Well, I think so I think some people, some facilitators can get particularly caught up in that, that world so some people really enjoy managing people. And a and you know, conflict resolution can often be based around with these specific types, and how do you you know, counteract and manage each of these different types of people? Look, I think I have noticed, yes, certain types of people, whether it’s someone who is perhaps more dominant in conversation, or, you know, someone who tends to sit back with folded arms and not engage in process is a bit of a mini boycott. I’ve seen people who can bring emotionally charged aspects to a conversation rather than, you know, logical ones. I’ve seen people who naturally lead in a small group setting I’ve seen the people who prefer to kind of write and get their thoughts out that way and then hand it on to others to champion. I’ve seen people who will question and disrupt on that you’re an example of one of those where when the group’s going in one direction, you’re the one who throw in the spinner and go hang on are we this is actually better right and and I do enjoy having people like you question the group and make sure we’re not just traveling down old trodden path. So all these different people exist, but I think in terms of what I’ve realized about that, is that in the book I was talking about don’t just do something stand there. They talk about projecting so the idea of the you and me so this idea that you really when you notice these different types, you really just noticing traits of your own that perhaps you don’t find to desirable that you’re witnessing and other people and I think That’s something I’ve become particularly conscious of is that if you’ve been critical of these peoples facilitators, you know, there’s elements of myself in all these different people at different times. So, so, so it’s not right to cast any judgment on that. It just did that. That is the role that person’s playing in the room in that time. But I think ultimately, I’ve realized that no matter who they are, who’s come into a room, I believe that people inherently want to progress, they want to be positive and constructive. And help the group achieve something, and that the only things that normally hold them back are well intentioned. So if they’re, you know, disagreeing with everyone, or if they’re saying there’s something wrong with the process, or if they’re emotional, and they feel that their emotions aren’t being considered in the conversation, these are all fun things. It’s, it’s, you know, trying to make the best process lead to the best outcome and make sure that You know, everyone’s doing so in an empathetic way. So like, I think it can all be harnessed positively. And so the way I believe you do that is not by managing the people directly. It’s about managing the process. So for example, you know, if someone speaks out and they say, well, hang on, I don’t agree with that this is all, you know, ball. And, you know, and and this whole thing’s a sham, right? It’s about opening that conversation up and saying, for example, in that instance, you know, does anyone else feel that maybe we should take a step back and look at some other options before we dive into this. So reframing what they’ve said is a more positive open thing. And then having the room you know, if people go Yeah, look, I think, you know, we should maybe just take a breather before we keep going. And now that person has a subgroup and they’re, they’re being listened to. And then the, you know, we the group moves forward together. So that’s an example I think of where the design is important. Similarly, you know, you don’t want extroverts to run a whole workshop. So it’s about building Things like the games and the post it notes and the small group work and things that allow that person to express themselves in ways.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 29:08
Yeah, all these all those writing exercise that holds that role of helping introverts express themselves over extroverts as well.

Scott Newton 29:18
Yeah, they’ve got different channels. And some people don’t like writing, they like drawing or illustrating or acting something out or whatever, or getting up around the room, they get restless if they’re sitting still too long. So that’s where often in a typical workshop, you kind of build those different moments of, Okay, we’re up and we’re moving and now we’re down and now we’re riding but now we’re going to sketch something, then we’re going to present it, we’re going to discuss it in small groups, pairs, large group, so So all of that is once again how design help support these different people. It’s not that certain people are right or wrong in the way they’re acting in the room. It’s just about, you know, facilitating for everyone. Yeah. So I think I’m inherently, you know, optimistic about people and it’s just about making sure you You’ve got a shared objective showing, I think the only role you really play as facilitator in terms of in the moment is just showing people that you care that you are there to champion the process that you want to help everyone get to something that we can all agree on. And often there’s compromise but we’re all trying to get there together. And then I think they feel that genuine trust and they, you know, they’ll go with the flow a little bit more. So yeah, but I think don’t overly manage people don’t overly worry about different types of people is might be

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 30:30
right. So you’ve never had a particular situation where you got overwritten by a person and managing just a process wasn’t enough?

Scott Newton 30:44
I have had moments where I have given the group other things to do. And invited someone who you know, really does have issues with the process or whatever an opportunity to speak one on one with me Before they return to the group, because sometimes, you know, there’s things that they want to express directly. I have had people question my role in the room and say, you know, what, hang on what like, why are you even here? or Why are there not more of you here? You know, why is there any one of you? And once again, I think a lot of that is just explaining the purpose and the limitations and how we got to where we are, and kind of bouncing off others in the room and checking how they feel and then allowing them to kind of console that person and kind of get to a point you can move on. But there have also been moments where, yeah, I’ve totally changed the design. So you know, you say to someone, okay, well, let’s talk about this constructively. If there’s an issue with this, like, let’s, let’s make that the conversation. So yeah, absolutely. I’ve had sessions where we have spent half an hour an hour more on something that was not planned, because that’s the conversation that appeared to need to happen. And, and you’re just showing the group that let’s have that conversation, and we’ll do everything that we can with that But obviously they get that, you know, you’ve come to do something in particular. And if we want to go down a different tangent, there’s limitations on what we can then do with that output, for example, but but we will do the best that we can. So yeah, so so agendas and things definitely changed on the fly. Yeah, but I haven’t I can’t think of a more extreme example at this point.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 32:22
Awesome. I’ve seen worse for sure. It’s funny. The way you express this, the words you use, the images you use. It gives me this feeling that you’re… I don’t know if it’s you if it’s a profession, but that it’s a very nurturing thing to be a facilitator, you create this nice environment.

Scott Newton 32:40
Yeah, I think so. I think I think look, there’s different facilitators or different approaches. Yeah. But I think certainly the philosophy, I guess, I support is, is the fact that Yeah, people are capable of more than they realize. And I think in a world of institutions, whether it’s government, whether it’s private sector, we’re used to companies, entities doing things for us, and being told that we’re just we’re just citizens. You know, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re shaped in a in a big pack and they’ll tell us what, you know, we should or shouldn’t do. But I think there’s there’s a lot more inherent value and contribution to be made at the individual level. And sometimes you just need someone to trust in you believe in you and say we can do this as a group. And I find that people do so. Yeah. So I think that’s probably what I do a lot of this facilitator.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 33:24
Absolutely awesome. I remember at the beginning the byron model, we also looked at some sheets, I think it was the very first day that we explained to the whole group. interesting concepts like cognitive bias, cognitive dissonance and all this stuff. And the facilitators use a lot of concepts that come from psychology and neurology.

Scott Newton 33:57
Yeah, so I think I do Sometimes referred to as capacity building, the fact that a group, sometimes we can get used to certain ways of doing things and and we’re not perhaps doing it in the best way. So for example, critical thinking skills is something that sometimes we try and remind people of, or build into activities. So for example, having people you know, really question the source of information that’s coming to them on something, it consider whether it is valid, whether it’s accurate, whether they need to ask further questions to ascertain that comparing and contrasting with other sources, being conscious of biases that they have. So for example, authority bias, you know, are you more inclined to trust someone? Because they’re an authority figure who’s come to give you information or are you less, maybe you anti authority, and so you’re going No, absolutely, I’m not going to believe what you say. And I, you know, and also there’s, there’s cognitive bias. So there’s the fact that Oh, confirmation bias, you, you know, you find that you’re more inclined to pick things up that already aligned with your current views. And you’ll take them on and you kind of try and ignore the other things that come to my challenging. So I think there’s Yeah, there’s lots of examples of different biases and critical thinking skills that we try and draw out of people. But I think to your point, about borrowing from different sectors, We absolutely do do that. So yeah, whether it’s psychology, philosophy, therapy, whether it’s change management, or you know, other kind of people management skills, I think there’s lots of that that can be applied to you know, what is effectively just a meeting of people, which we’ve been doing for centuries for before, facilitation was a role. So

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 35:44
it’s interesting because, I am definitely not an expert on that topic, but it seems to me the new old ages, people holding that role, as you come back, a few centuries back. We’re more like closest to the mystical world. It was priests and it was Guides and Shamans that were respected in tribes. And they were using, of course, quite different concepts to do their job. It’s interesting that now with our modern knowledge in our non modern concepts, which are more, I think, rational based. And another thing that’s good about neurology, psychology, philosophy, therapy, this job facilitator emerged. Do you think there’s more and more facilitators in the world? Is it a growing profession?

Scott Newton 36:34
Yeah, look, it’s definitely a growing profession. I don’t think everyone necessarily identifies as a facilitator like they may be doing facilitation work, but not recognize it as that. But yeah, look, I think I think the reason it’s growing is because to your point, you know, even even when we look at less authoritarian figures, and we look at more of these kind of nurtures support as he said, you know, tribes and and you know, Sharman, whoever is Though that is a step towards more enabling empowering a group rather than telling them directing them, it’s still not as far as I think where we’ve now landed in modern society, in at least the workshops I’ve been involved in, is that there is because there is more of a push away from people just coming in and tell people how to how to suck eggs, you know, this is what it is, this is how we’re going to do it. We’re just here to tell you off you go. Because that’s not only is that becoming less palatable to to the community, but people are realizing decision makers are realizing that it’s not leading to the best outcomes, that if they’re genuinely reaching out to stakeholders and community and, and, and and harnessing the insights that those people have the things that they are uniquely positioned to provide to a process, then then they can emerge with stronger solutions. So I think as long as we’re heading down that route, there’s going to be more and more need for people to convene those. And look, you know, I do dream of a time where we can move beyond meeting facilitators where everything can be entirely community LED. I’m having conversations with people who have worked on you know, I agree rhythms and online spaces and things that incentivize compromise and constructive dialogue as opposed to the social media networks we have, which don’t support that right there. So I’ve had

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 38:21
What do you mean by that?

Scott Newton 38:23
What I mean by that is that, you know, something like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram is currently designed to keep you within your echo chamber, and to be able to show support for specific views without nuance. So it’s, you know, it’s a lock button. And even though we’ve we’ve extended slightly beyond that it’s kind of tokenistic in the sense that yes, there’s now six emojis you can use, but they’re all various forms of alike and I don’t like it. The beauty of some of the other things I’ve seen used and once again, we can debrief after It’s not gonna give you some more links to that to include in the description. But um, some of the things yeah, some of the things that have been trialed, allow for people to, for example, work to craft comments that rather than just being supported by one base of supporters is something that as many people as possible can agree with. So statements where they’re trying to find the common ground between the disparate views, and this AI actually will spit back out okay, this many people agreed or didn’t do that. And and people can refine it until they find a common ground that 90% of I agree with.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 39:32
Does it work by analyzing natural language?

Scott Newton 39:36
No, so it’s about it’s it’s more of a process of call and response. So it’ll people will prepare some kind of comment, it will survey people to see what people thought of how how much they supported that comment that gets back back to the person who wrote it, and then they can continue to refine it and see what other people are writing. And then in the end, you kind of emerged with the comment that more people can agree with and perhaps polarized views that were first expressed on that on that system. So I think that kind of that that incentive pace, the fact that you actually incentivizing people to build consensus is the thing that’s perhaps missing on in online spaces at the moment. And so that that is the kind of thing that interests me in the could we get to a point where, yeah, people can convene their own conversations without need for a facilitator. I think frameworks for conversations also help with that, you know, so things like kitchen table conversations as a technique that’s used, we people get a booklet that they can take an invite their neighbors over and sit around the kitchen table and move through that conversation as it’s outlined in the booklet. And that’s kind of a way that you can design people through a process without a facilitator being present. But then I think the other thing that we’re really trying to do in that space is is train more facilitators, but also community champions so trying to find people in everyday people in the community who can learn enough of these techniques that they can convene more meaningful, constructive, supportive, nurturing conversations and guides their small groups towards decisions and action without needing to call on an expert to do it. So I think the more that we do that the more that people learn these skills. Yeah, hopefully we are having more constructive conversations.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 41:22
That’s awesome. Thanks for all this information. But no, with you, Mel of conflicts and issues between all kinds of organizations and entities and people in the world. I don’t think facilities are going to disappear anytime soon. Do you think that in the time that facilitators have existed, there’s already an obvious impact of this profession you think it’s candles already be seen that in somehow changing the world a bit the fact that this actually people on the planet whose job it is to solve conflicts, Pookie people to get in the room and have them talk together?

Scott Newton 41:59
That’s a really interesting question. I would say it’s inevitable in the sense that you have enough facilitators in corporate in government and in community conversations, convening these meetings and workshops, then obviously, yeah, you could you could link a whole lot of action to things that have been supported by facilitators. But But look, I’m probably, of the mind that we’re we’re really far away from, at this point, facilitators having a really meaningful impact. The main reason being that a lot of the key decisions in our world are made by people who are either incentivized by money or by or by political gain, you know, so I think the very well intentioned people holding positions of power who genuinely want to support the people get bogged down in political winds in order to maintain impel and protect themselves from from media slander from, you know, other judgments because of short term impact on long term decisions they’re trying to make. And so I think as long as that system existed, it is as long as politics plays a key role in decision making, that is not something that you can tease out in in workshops, because everything’s not on the table. People can talk about, okay, well, he’s the expertise that exists. He’s, you know, the views of different stakeholders that we need to take into account. But what you can’t really have a constructive conversation around is, we’re going to take all this and we’re going to consider this and make a recommendation to this politician who’s going to make the decision. You can also say, oh, by the way, look, it’s in that person’s electorate. And obviously, that means that you know, they need to throw some money at this in the short term so that they can secure enough voters for next election. So really, when we’re talking about the best place to put this thing, one of them’s gonna have to go in this electric because that’s good for voters. So in that moment, you’re kind of pulling the rug out from under this really complex system and all these factors that are being considered, because there’s now this political angle that really shouldn’t exist there because it doesn’t necessarily lead to the best outcome for people in that decision. But it’s something that the the politician is making the decision is weighing up. So I think we need to take some of the politics out of big policy decisions. And in Australia, we can see that with, with things like climate change that we’ve sat on for a long time, and, and the RG bar g around that effect has become a political couple, has really slowed down any bipartisan progress. And I think if we had taken the politics out of that earlier, if politicians recognize when something was going to be hated by their political struggles, and so they needed to hand that off to a more less biased group, so for example, deliberative democracy, which you experienced in the bar and model, where citizens who are randomly selected and representative of the community come together and hear from experts and And will involve to help prepare some recommendations. Those kind of less bias processes, by the people for the people with the aid of experts and politicians helping frame the debate that is only going to help us get to better decisions and therefore make facilitators work more valuable. But as long as politics is playing a large role, I don’t think that I think we’re capped at what we can do is facilitate with.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 45:28
Right, the political game, eternal blockage. And maybe a question I should asked you at the very beginning of this interview, but why do you love to be a faciliator?

Scott Newton 45:42
Yeah, look, I think it’s coming out throughout the interview. I think I believe that I believe in people. And I get frustrated when when good decisions are being made. So I think those two things combined lead me to the idea that if I can help empower people to move through things that more efficiently and constructively and lead to an outcome that they can all sign off on, then I’m happy. So I’m hoping that, yeah, through law, if I can continue to do more of that and just kind of come in at the right time to help really set people off in the right direction, and then step back again. And I will and I love that I can do it in all different rooms, like just the rooms have been a fly on the wall on like, everything from low Council of Australia to the Australian Republic movement to New South Wales health to, you know, university students to counsel employees, the stuff I’ve seen and heard is just so disparate, that I really love that opportunity. So So yeah, I intend to just keep doing more of that. That sounds amazing. Thank you so much for you and says, Scott, can we find you somewhere online? Yeah, look, I think, at this stage, the best way that people can contact me is through my email. So Scott newton@live.com Today you but I am I’m about to go on a six month sabbatical, which I’m looking forward to but when I return, I We’ll be setting up a consultancy called gauge consulting ga UGA. And I’m looking forward to doing work that way. So if anyone wants to reach out to me at that email address happy for you to add that to the bottom of the email for now. Yeah, I would be very happy to just, you know, have a coffee, have a chat, understand what challenges people are dealing with or if they’re interested in facilitation, what they want to know more about, and help people out whoever I can.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 47:27
I hope y’all heard that Scott is inviting you to contact him. I hope you understand this is an opportunity, thanks so much, Scott.

Scott Newton 47:34
Thank you so much for having me. Cyprien. Hope to see you in more workshops on both sides.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 47:39
You might

Scott Newton 47:41
Take care, survive the heat you do.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 47:48
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Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 0:08
In this episode, I interview Scott Newton. Scott is a facilitator and stakeholder engagement strategist, his job and his superpower is to get very diverse people in the same room and get them to debate and come up with solutions while avoiding conflict. I’ve experienced Scott skills firsthand, I was very impressed by his calm and cheerful attitude, the tools he used and the processes he had put in place to allow the group to come to an outcome.

Scott, you are facilitatpr and stakeholder engagement strategist and you’ve worked with governments corporations and non-for-profits. You’ve worked with the law Council of Australia, the sydney city commissions, byron shire council, New Democracy and ats, sydney’s University of Technology. So, Scott, my first question for you is, how do you come to be a facilitator and stakeholder engagement strategy? What’s your journey like?

Scott Newton 1:13
Yeah, I think look, I don’t think there is a typical journey. Certainly the other facilitators I’ve met we all seem to kind of fall into it from a totally unrelated field. My my journey was studying public relations, communications and then doing some recruitment and marketing work for a while and then realizing that wasn’t really my stick. It wasn’t motivating me, inspiring me. So so we’re traveling for a while, came back and found a consultancy called Kj. And someone very special to me, Deborah Cameron, who was the facilitator for them, kind of welcomed me into the company and made the introduction and then I did a lot of work with her. And with Kathy Jones and Natalie Boyd and in Cali and others who I own my facilitation experience to within that consultancy, and, and yeah, so I just kind of got hands on experience, you know, their stakeholder engagement experts as a consultancy, they do everything from you know, government work including state government and local government to nonprofits, to corporates and across all different sectors. So, you know, education, health, legal, you know, transport related, it can be internal change management pieces, but it could also be board and strategy meetings, it’s all types so I kind of got a lot of experience that way helping and supporting and then eventually facilitating myself in that and then along the way trying to learn what the hell facilitation wants, you know, reaching out and getting some, you know, actual couple of day training programs and, and reading what material I could but I really learned that you can borrow things from all different sectors. So it can be you know, stuff from therapy stuff from, you know, group dynamics stuff from design thinking, you know, stay From conflict resolution, it’s all relevant. So you kind of borrow what is useful from all that and and apply it to the workshop setting. Yeah.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 3:08
Yeah, that’s what I find amazing. And what qualities you must have? Obviously, empathy is a big one.

Scott Newton 3:18
Yeah, I think empathy, I think you’re being genuine about believing in people. And that by supporting and empowering them, they can achieve something is crucial. If you don’t believe in people, then you’ve got a problem, I think as facilitator. Yeah, interpersonal skills is obviously part of it. I think that’s the one that people are most aware of, you know, being able to present and talk and connect with people build relationships, console, comfort, relax, all that kind of thing. I think humor is a useful thing. But obviously, not every facilitator leans on that. But then I think there’s a big design component, a strategic component, which I think sometimes people don’t always have a specific so tight. So it’s what? Yeah, what are the different parts of the system that we’re dealing with here? And and then borrowing from different design elements across different sectors and different areas of expertise to construct a design that is going to work. I think that design element is really important. So I think if you’re someone who’s sitting at a dinner table, and people are arguing about something, and you’re thinking, Man, there’s some common elements here that we could really take. And then if we took that and just kind of chatted about ideas that help support that thing, then we could get to a solution. If you kind of thinking there’s a better way to have this conversation, then I think that’s you’re the right fit for facilitation. And if you’re happy at the idea that a group could achieve something great while you’re standing back, and that everyone thinks that they’re brilliant, and doesn’t necessarily say the role that you played, I think if you happy with that, the fact that they get the credit, not you, I think… Then you’re in a good position to be facilitator. Yeah, I think those are, those are some key skills. And look, one that people don’t talk about often is, is the organization of information because you’re not, you do not need to be an expert in content. And quite frankly, if you try to be, it’s a problem, because you should be spending your efforts elsewhere. So because you’re focused on process, people are going to be talking about things that you know nothing about. So being able to organize information in your head, to be able to hear something and go, that is more important than this piece of information that’s coming through or that thing they just said, is, is one of a list of three things that falls in this category, that kind of almost spatial organizing of information. I know it sounds very abstract when I talk about it like that, but but being able to being comfortable dealing with information you’re not an absolute expert in but still being able to organize that somehow is I think another key skill to be able to guard a great For I’m yet to work out how you learn that. But I imagine that that’s part of the comprehension stuff that we do in language when we’re younger. But yeah, I think that’s that’s an important skill.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 6:11
Okay, so when when structures call you governments and corporations and NGOs, from all sectors in all industries, what kind of problems do they come with?

Scott Newton 6:22
problems? God, look, it’s so wide ranging, I think, as I said, One type is, is there’s a decision to be made. So often that’s where government comes. So government is trying to decide, you know, where do we invest certain money, or what kind of you know, what kind of decision to make for a particular location. So it could be, you know, master planning planning processes for a town or a city or a single site. It can be that they’re trying to get suggestions for improvement, so it could be a video being exercised with the trying to understand, okay, well, what can we achieve in the future? What can we learn from the past and pulling experts stakeholders together for that? And it can be controversial. Like sometimes we’ve got people coming in because suddenly has blown out, perhaps stakeholders haven’t been managed as well as they would have liked. And they,

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 7:19
yes, that’s the stuff I like.

Scott Newton 7:21
Yeah, right. You might like conflict resolution kind of stuff. So I think I look, I’m not a conflict resolution manager, that’s not my stick. I think I try and come into it with just as positive approach as possible in the sense that if, if we can all agree on some common ground and a common objective, then we’ll naturally work together. So my job is to kind of find that common point. But But yeah, I think look, we are pulled in sometimes particularly as facilitators, where things have gotten to a point where they need to bring everyone into a room and and really try and make the relationships more constructive and work through some stuff. So so we can be brought together for that as well.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 7:57
So you may or you do enter rooms sometimes where you can already feel the energy of the conflict in the atmosphere?

Scott Newton 8:08
Yeah, absolutely. I think what we try and do is get involved as early as possible with the design and preparation for that session, because there’s a lot you can do to address that before you’re even in the room. I think it’s a facilitator, you don’t want to surprise you don’t want to walk into a room and suddenly find that it’s thick with tension. So so you know, we’ll talk to the client and we’ll ask the right questions to understand what those dynamics are going to be beforehand will often reach out to that other stakeholders. So we’ll talk to them and try and understand their perspectives on the issue. So I think as much as possible, we try and make sure that yeah, if we do walk in a room with a stick with tension, which we have before, that we’ve done as much as we can before we even start to to make it as productive as possible.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 8:48
I understand. I’ve asked you what kind of problems do people come with. What kind of solutions do you offer? When you pitch to those structures, what it is that you offer, how do you explain it?

Scott Newton 9:06
Let me give you example. So if we’re having a conversation about palliative care, and we’ve got doctors, nurses, patients, we’ve got paramedics, we’ve got other experts in the room volunteers. They are the ones who in the best position to have a productive conversation, man paid of care, and they’re the ones who are going to identify what’s working and what isn’t and what can be done. So I’ll our offering is not content, right? It’s just about how do we guide and unlock that room. So I think, I guess the analogy is a Coke is that we can create the right kitchen environment, the space for it. So our expertise is in understanding what they’re trying to achieve and packing that and making sure the space is conducive to that. But then it’s about employing I guess the tools, whether it’s the utensils or whatever that we need to kind of guide the group to through what they need. So for example, if people were to say to me, you know, We want to understand, you know, what isn’t isn’t working and and you know how we can, you know, improve things into the future for something like palliative care. Our job is to go Okay, well, how do we break that down as a logical, logical conversation? So could be that, first we need to understand, you know, what is working now, you know, what do people feel positive about and starting on that positive note, and then having a separate conversation around what maybe isn’t working as well. And then perhaps identifying, for example, some principles of what are the key things that they feel are working quite well? Or, you know, where the opportunity sit and then having facilitating some deeper dive design brainstorming activities where they’re actually unpacking? Okay, what are some examples of how we could actually act on that and make some different ideas. So I think we try and give them the framework. First of all, because we’re, we’re independent to the content, so we’re in a better position to do that. But then we look at what tools and activities we’ve got at our disposal so you can pull everything from appreciative inquiry which is a way of kind of framing that current In a future conversation, we could use design thinking techniques to identify the problem and then prototype different solutions. We could pull on gamification elements. So we can make it quite a fun exercise. So you know, pulling together, there’s, you know, even Lego has created a facilitators tool kit that you can use in these conversations. So looking at, yeah, what games and activities we can use to draw out that information. So I think our offering is in that piece. And then the final thing in kind of that cookie analogy, is the actual cooking, right. So I think we’re fortunate in that we’ve certainly developed skills as facilitators to employ those utensils and things effectively. So that’s where, yeah, conflict resolution, that interpersonal skills, the, you know, helping draw out people’s input in the room, all that kind of stuff comes into play. So I think that’s, that’s where we’re really just pitching ourselves as facilitators in that once we’ve designed the process, it’s worth having us in the room because we can adapt and adjust in the moment to kind of get the best out of that design.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 12:00
Wow, pretty amazing that one of my questions was actually what facilitation, what facilitation strategies, tools and exercises you use. I’ve seen a few when we did the, the byron model, which you were facilitating, and you were amazing.

Scott Newton 12:19
That was really good.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 12:20
Yeah. Not too much conflict. It was okay. Unfortunately, but yeah, I saw some great tools that you use that you could could you give us an insight on your favorite ones?

Scott Newton 12:36
My favorite one? Look, something that we used in that process, which I’m a big believer in for a number of reasons. And I should emphasize that these tools are, it’s all about strategically applying them right. So I’m not going into situations trying to use a particular tool over and over again, it’s just about well, what are we here to achieve and then what to best serve that But I think one that I found has been relevant quite a lot, which I used in that session was associate grant. So associate grant, for example, is, is a scale, a Likert scale that you’re asking people to vote on when they’re providing feedback on something. So for example, someone puts out with the bar and model someone makes a suggestion in that workshop. And rather than just throwing that around the room for discussion, or having people go on and like that, and I like that or whatever, in a haphazard kind of way, you ask people to stand along the spectrum. So at one end, they’ve got I love it. Great idea. Yeah. I love it. I like it. I could live with it. As a suggestion, I lamented or I load it. And then another spot that we have for questions. Maybe you need to ask more questions before you can vote. what’s beautiful about it is when people stand along that spectrum. People quite honest. So people have been found apparently so I’ve heard to confess the murders and things on this scale because there’s something about They’re standing for, you know, where you sit on the scale, you know, we want to be honest to ourselves. But then when people start asking, Well, why are you standing where you’re standing, people also feel the need to justify where they are. So they will reveal things that maybe they hadn’t intended when they first stood where they did. But what it means is that as a facilitator, it’s a great example of trying to read a whole room and not just have the noisy people talking all the time. And they play an important role. They help move things along, but you want to make sure you’re not losing everyone else. So what’s great about associate Graham is at one glance, you can see where where is everyone standing. And so if someone’s are, you know, either end of the spectrum, you can kind of ask them, you know, why are you standing where you’re standing? And what would it take for you to be more supportive of this idea, or whatever it is, and people shift and move along the scale as the conversation continues, you know, but I think it’s a really positive way to, to have a conversation and I think once again, the fact that there’s a scale that goes from a lot It to lock it to I could live with it and whatnot, also captures another element of what I love is facilitative, which is trying to find those gray areas, you know, often we’re so used to inherit political culture and having the binary, right, the black and white, the right and left wing or whatever it is. And I think the reality is humans are complicated and nuanced. And and our views on things depends on context. And so we should create tools that allow for that nuance. And I think that’s an example of where people can kind of show where they sit along the scale. Yeah, so I think that’s an example of a tool or lock. And, and other than that, I really, I really enjoy tools that allow people to find play, you know, when I’m not a facilitator, I manage a co working space for game developers. So I believe in play and I believe that adults too often give up play too early. And I believe that a lot of conversations that we’re having can be had in a really engaging fun way. So So for me, the other thing is trying to find ways to get mixed up. For example, we have workshop the other day, and we were talking about opportunities and, and barriers to achieving a vision. And rather than just writing that up on two pieces of butchers paper, the group was playing a game of snakes and ladders. So they’re moving around a room and putting Snakes and Ladders down and moving up and down, as they either got closer to or further away from the vision, you know, simple stuff like that really can create some fun in a conversation that still gets quality outputs.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 16:27
What’s the biggest benefit of gamification in those types of environments? Do you think? Does it real people get more relaxed and so that they express himself?

Scott Newton 16:37
Yeah, I think so. That’s absolutely part of it. And I think Yeah, part of his bet keeping people engaged over a long workshop particularly. But it’s also I think, there’s Look, there’s some theory and I can’t think of the exact example right now someone can correct us one time to whatever comments you’ve got. But there’s I think it could be you theory is what I’m thinking about, but the that you need to move into the uncomfortable or the different in order to discover something new. So if you just sit down and go, look, I already know everything about a problem. And I’m going to sit at my desk like I always do, and I’m going to come up with solutions, you’re going to come up with the same things I’ve come up with before, and they may or may not work if they haven’t previously. Whereas if you depart from the norm, if you you know, play something that is a game that gets you to think about something a bit differently, or if you’re exposed to external stimulus or other ways of thinking, then you go on a journey, you go into somewhere abstract or different, and you It’s refreshing. And then through that process, you’re more inclined to have be surprised by something. So I think people who play games in the workshops that I do, can often emerge with something that they wouldn’t have come up with by more traditional means.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 17:49
Very interesting. Is there any popular facilitation resource you can recommend?

Scott Newton 17:56
Well, yeah, I recommend my favorite book. So my favorite bookies, don’t just don’t just do something stand there. It’s a great example because it shows it really takes that philosophy of you are not the center of it as facilitator, you are an enabler. So you are standing at the back of the room effectively, and you’re trying to have as little to do with the workshop as possible, and guide people through. And I remember one of my favorite moments in the bar and model, one that we did that year in is there was a point and I’ve got a photo of it on my phone that I show people every now and then where you were up the front, and you had the whiteboard and the marker and you were taking the group to a session, it was an impromptu session, you were showing them one of your, you know, theories and how it would apply to what we were looking at. And I think that’s that, to me is the moment as facilitator where you’re successful is not when I’m, you know, main handling a group through a problem, but it’s when the group is now taking a life of its own and it’s guiding its own way forward. And I’m just there to kind of feed it and support it and you know, nudge it if I need to, and I That books a great example of that. So it has really practical tools and examples, but also really unpack that philosophy in terms of the way you approach a room, but also the way that you think about your role in the room and and the quite critical of what you’re bringing to the table. So I would definitely recommend that as the main resource.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 19:18
Awesome. Definitely put it at the bottom of the article. Can you tell us one of your big success stories and one of your big failure stories?

Scott Newton 19:31
I’m gonna start with the failure because it’s more interesting to do it that way. So I had a I had a workshop, this is only How old is this? This is two weeks old. I think. I had a workshop two weeks ago, that was a whole lot of experts in a room who were very knowledgeable on a particular topic. So they were there because They were experts in something that, you know, I could only know so much about as a non expert in this area. And they were dealing with a particular example of a particular scenario. And it was also very specialized, you know, you know a lot about that, that that scenario you don’t. So it’s a classic example. It’s an extreme example of the fact that suicide is often not the content experts, right? So I didn’t know anything about the actual thing we’re working on. I was there to help with process. So I’d been pulled in quite late in the process. And they’d asked me to yet guide the room through I had developed a design for that room. That was effectively a framework for people to break out into small groups work through certain issues in a certain way. And we were going to identify, you know, what, what recommendations these different groups had, and the rationale that they had behind these recommendations. And what ended up happening was, I hadn’t done my research properly in advance. to how the different stakeholders in the room would react to that design. So what happened is that when we got there, people who, who we and the client had fully intended to kind of split up into the small groups wanted to be together. And and you know, they had a reasonably valid reason to be together, they felt that it was their job to confer as a group and present their recommendations. And so what that meant was now my design, which is entirely dependent on people splitting up wasn’t going to be possible. But what was really important to the client was that, that we didn’t just have that group of stakeholders go off and do something separately, they needed to be integrated somehow. So that meant that rather than just sending them off to the side and having different small groups, we all needed to stay together as one group. Because then that way, we still had everything mixed. You know, everyone was in together, but those people were still together. And so what that meant is that a workshop that was going to be very separated in the small groups where I wouldn’t have to touch the content too much because it’s facilitator. I would just have the recommendations before To the surface surface and capture them, I was now dealing with the nitty gritty of the conversation because it was everyone in a circle and a whiteboard. And they holding the marker as someone who knew very little about the subject. So I think, as a result, you know, it was quite challenging because I was having to do a lot of checking back with the group and saying, you know, is this Am I understanding this rod and, you know, checking back and, uh, you know, I built that into the process.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 22:25
Yeah the best strategy is to just repeat what the previous person said

Scott Newton 22:29
Right? Well, and this is a classic thing in facilitation is that use their words, right? So you don’t just do that. So you don’t sound like a fool. But it’s also because they’ve they worded things in a certain way that often is relevant to their industry and relevant to their understanding of the issue. So so I was making sure I was using their words as much as possible and not my own. But yeah, so look, I survived that one. And it went well enough, but I think it was definitely a failure in that if I had gone to stakeholders beforehand, and and said, Look, this is what I’m planning on doing, you know, does that work? For you, do you have any concerns, I would have identified that earlier. And I could have changed the design as a result. So I think as a result, I would definitely recommend that anyone who’s planning a meeting or a workshop, particularly one where they’re looking to kind of really design it up in a certain way to make sure that checking in with people, yeah, and making sure that everyone’s comfortable with it before they run it. And on a more positive note, I think that one of the workshops I’m most proud of was the law Council of Australia. And it was probably because this is a, you know, significant client. They it is, you know, they have Supreme Court judges and partners of law firms, the very senior people in Australia, coming together for a summit once a year to talk about, you know, the legal profession in Australia and how to move forward with it. And, and I was pitching to them, something that was quite uncomfortable to them, you know, it was rather than kind of just panel discussions and, and and kind of whole group presentations and maybe a little bit of talking amongst themselves. It was a highly designed workshop that had them up with posted notes around the room and had an illustrator in the corner who was graphically illustrating the conversation as we went, it had live polling on their mobiles, and we had interactive panel, small groups and report it was just all happening. And and, to their credit, you know, these people who were used to, you know, Manning, the big court rooms and having very rigorous, you know, approaches to things and quite traditional approaches, sometimes embraced it. And I think we worked really hard to make it happen. And it required all of Kj I it was it was a cast of thousands who were involved in the workshop. But But yeah, I think it was a big success. And I think to the point about you theory, I think they learned at some discoveries and some outcomes that they wouldn’t have if they just went about it the same way they always do. I think by mixing up the design of the conversation, we also mixed up the outputs. So it was really exciting. Yeah,

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 25:01
yeah. Awesome. Thanks for sharing. Good stuff. Moving on to different topic. I’d like to know what you’ve learned about the human nature in those because you end up in quite interesting situations. And I’m sure you you recognize some traits and difficulties and problematics in type of people that come back again, normal situation, I’d like to hear about it.

Scott Newton 25:24
Well, I think so I think some people, some facilitators can get particularly caught up in that, that world so some people really enjoy managing people. And a and you know, conflict resolution can often be based around with these specific types, and how do you you know, counteract and manage each of these different types of people? Look, I think I have noticed, yes, certain types of people, whether it’s someone who is perhaps more dominant in conversation, or, you know, someone who tends to sit back with folded arms and not engage in process is a bit of a mini boycott. I’ve seen people who can bring emotionally charged aspects to a conversation rather than, you know, logical ones. I’ve seen people who naturally lead in a small group setting I’ve seen the people who prefer to kind of write and get their thoughts out that way and then hand it on to others to champion. I’ve seen people who will question and disrupt on that you’re an example of one of those where when the group’s going in one direction, you’re the one who throw in the spinner and go hang on are we this is actually better right and and I do enjoy having people like you question the group and make sure we’re not just traveling down old trodden path. So all these different people exist, but I think in terms of what I’ve realized about that, is that in the book I was talking about don’t just do something stand there. They talk about projecting so the idea of the you and me so this idea that you really when you notice these different types, you really just noticing traits of your own that perhaps you don’t find to desirable that you’re witnessing and other people and I think That’s something I’ve become particularly conscious of is that if you’ve been critical of these peoples facilitators, you know, there’s elements of myself in all these different people at different times. So, so, so it’s not right to cast any judgment on that. It just did that. That is the role that person’s playing in the room in that time. But I think ultimately, I’ve realized that no matter who they are, who’s come into a room, I believe that people inherently want to progress, they want to be positive and constructive. And help the group achieve something, and that the only things that normally hold them back are well intentioned. So if they’re, you know, disagreeing with everyone, or if they’re saying there’s something wrong with the process, or if they’re emotional, and they feel that their emotions aren’t being considered in the conversation, these are all fun things. It’s, it’s, you know, trying to make the best process lead to the best outcome and make sure that You know, everyone’s doing so in an empathetic way. So like, I think it can all be harnessed positively. And so the way I believe you do that is not by managing the people directly. It’s about managing the process. So for example, you know, if someone speaks out and they say, well, hang on, I don’t agree with that this is all, you know, ball. And, you know, and and this whole thing’s a sham, right? It’s about opening that conversation up and saying, for example, in that instance, you know, does anyone else feel that maybe we should take a step back and look at some other options before we dive into this. So reframing what they’ve said is a more positive open thing. And then having the room you know, if people go Yeah, look, I think, you know, we should maybe just take a breather before we keep going. And now that person has a subgroup and they’re, they’re being listened to. And then the, you know, we the group moves forward together. So that’s an example I think of where the design is important. Similarly, you know, you don’t want extroverts to run a whole workshop. So it’s about building Things like the games and the post it notes and the small group work and things that allow that person to express themselves in ways.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 29:08
Yeah, all these all those writing exercise that holds that role of helping introverts express themselves over extroverts as well.

Scott Newton 29:18
Yeah, they’ve got different channels. And some people don’t like writing, they like drawing or illustrating or acting something out or whatever, or getting up around the room, they get restless if they’re sitting still too long. So that’s where often in a typical workshop, you kind of build those different moments of, Okay, we’re up and we’re moving and now we’re down and now we’re riding but now we’re going to sketch something, then we’re going to present it, we’re going to discuss it in small groups, pairs, large group, so So all of that is once again how design help support these different people. It’s not that certain people are right or wrong in the way they’re acting in the room. It’s just about, you know, facilitating for everyone. Yeah. So I think I’m inherently, you know, optimistic about people and it’s just about making sure you You’ve got a shared objective showing, I think the only role you really play as facilitator in terms of in the moment is just showing people that you care that you are there to champion the process that you want to help everyone get to something that we can all agree on. And often there’s compromise but we’re all trying to get there together. And then I think they feel that genuine trust and they, you know, they’ll go with the flow a little bit more. So yeah, but I think don’t overly manage people don’t overly worry about different types of people is might be

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 30:30
right. So you’ve never had a particular situation where you got overwritten by a person and managing just a process wasn’t enough?

Scott Newton 30:44
I have had moments where I have given the group other things to do. And invited someone who you know, really does have issues with the process or whatever an opportunity to speak one on one with me Before they return to the group, because sometimes, you know, there’s things that they want to express directly. I have had people question my role in the room and say, you know, what, hang on what like, why are you even here? or Why are there not more of you here? You know, why is there any one of you? And once again, I think a lot of that is just explaining the purpose and the limitations and how we got to where we are, and kind of bouncing off others in the room and checking how they feel and then allowing them to kind of console that person and kind of get to a point you can move on. But there have also been moments where, yeah, I’ve totally changed the design. So you know, you say to someone, okay, well, let’s talk about this constructively. If there’s an issue with this, like, let’s, let’s make that the conversation. So yeah, absolutely. I’ve had sessions where we have spent half an hour an hour more on something that was not planned, because that’s the conversation that appeared to need to happen. And, and you’re just showing the group that let’s have that conversation, and we’ll do everything that we can with that But obviously they get that, you know, you’ve come to do something in particular. And if we want to go down a different tangent, there’s limitations on what we can then do with that output, for example, but but we will do the best that we can. So yeah, so so agendas and things definitely changed on the fly. Yeah, but I haven’t I can’t think of a more extreme example at this point.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 32:22
Awesome. I’ve seen worse for sure. It’s funny. The way you express this, the words you use, the images you use. It gives me this feeling that you’re… I don’t know if it’s you if it’s a profession, but that it’s a very nurturing thing to be a facilitator, you create this nice environment.

Scott Newton 32:40
Yeah, I think so. I think I think look, there’s different facilitators or different approaches. Yeah. But I think certainly the philosophy, I guess, I support is, is the fact that Yeah, people are capable of more than they realize. And I think in a world of institutions, whether it’s government, whether it’s private sector, we’re used to companies, entities doing things for us, and being told that we’re just we’re just citizens. You know, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re shaped in a in a big pack and they’ll tell us what, you know, we should or shouldn’t do. But I think there’s there’s a lot more inherent value and contribution to be made at the individual level. And sometimes you just need someone to trust in you believe in you and say we can do this as a group. And I find that people do so. Yeah. So I think that’s probably what I do a lot of this facilitator.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 33:24
Absolutely awesome. I remember at the beginning the byron model, we also looked at some sheets, I think it was the very first day that we explained to the whole group. interesting concepts like cognitive bias, cognitive dissonance and all this stuff. And the facilitators use a lot of concepts that come from psychology and neurology.

Scott Newton 33:57
Yeah, so I think I do Sometimes referred to as capacity building, the fact that a group, sometimes we can get used to certain ways of doing things and and we’re not perhaps doing it in the best way. So for example, critical thinking skills is something that sometimes we try and remind people of, or build into activities. So for example, having people you know, really question the source of information that’s coming to them on something, it consider whether it is valid, whether it’s accurate, whether they need to ask further questions to ascertain that comparing and contrasting with other sources, being conscious of biases that they have. So for example, authority bias, you know, are you more inclined to trust someone? Because they’re an authority figure who’s come to give you information or are you less, maybe you anti authority, and so you’re going No, absolutely, I’m not going to believe what you say. And I, you know, and also there’s, there’s cognitive bias. So there’s the fact that Oh, confirmation bias, you, you know, you find that you’re more inclined to pick things up that already aligned with your current views. And you’ll take them on and you kind of try and ignore the other things that come to my challenging. So I think there’s Yeah, there’s lots of examples of different biases and critical thinking skills that we try and draw out of people. But I think to your point, about borrowing from different sectors, We absolutely do do that. So yeah, whether it’s psychology, philosophy, therapy, whether it’s change management, or you know, other kind of people management skills, I think there’s lots of that that can be applied to you know, what is effectively just a meeting of people, which we’ve been doing for centuries for before, facilitation was a role. So

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 35:44
it’s interesting because, I am definitely not an expert on that topic, but it seems to me the new old ages, people holding that role, as you come back, a few centuries back. We’re more like closest to the mystical world. It was priests and it was Guides and Shamans that were respected in tribes. And they were using, of course, quite different concepts to do their job. It’s interesting that now with our modern knowledge in our non modern concepts, which are more, I think, rational based. And another thing that’s good about neurology, psychology, philosophy, therapy, this job facilitator emerged. Do you think there’s more and more facilitators in the world? Is it a growing profession?

Scott Newton 36:34
Yeah, look, it’s definitely a growing profession. I don’t think everyone necessarily identifies as a facilitator like they may be doing facilitation work, but not recognize it as that. But yeah, look, I think I think the reason it’s growing is because to your point, you know, even even when we look at less authoritarian figures, and we look at more of these kind of nurtures support as he said, you know, tribes and and you know, Sharman, whoever is Though that is a step towards more enabling empowering a group rather than telling them directing them, it’s still not as far as I think where we’ve now landed in modern society, in at least the workshops I’ve been involved in, is that there is because there is more of a push away from people just coming in and tell people how to how to suck eggs, you know, this is what it is, this is how we’re going to do it. We’re just here to tell you off you go. Because that’s not only is that becoming less palatable to to the community, but people are realizing decision makers are realizing that it’s not leading to the best outcomes, that if they’re genuinely reaching out to stakeholders and community and, and, and and harnessing the insights that those people have the things that they are uniquely positioned to provide to a process, then then they can emerge with stronger solutions. So I think as long as we’re heading down that route, there’s going to be more and more need for people to convene those. And look, you know, I do dream of a time where we can move beyond meeting facilitators where everything can be entirely community LED. I’m having conversations with people who have worked on you know, I agree rhythms and online spaces and things that incentivize compromise and constructive dialogue as opposed to the social media networks we have, which don’t support that right there. So I’ve had

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 38:21
What do you mean by that?

Scott Newton 38:23
What I mean by that is that, you know, something like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram is currently designed to keep you within your echo chamber, and to be able to show support for specific views without nuance. So it’s, you know, it’s a lock button. And even though we’ve we’ve extended slightly beyond that it’s kind of tokenistic in the sense that yes, there’s now six emojis you can use, but they’re all various forms of alike and I don’t like it. The beauty of some of the other things I’ve seen used and once again, we can debrief after It’s not gonna give you some more links to that to include in the description. But um, some of the things yeah, some of the things that have been trialed, allow for people to, for example, work to craft comments that rather than just being supported by one base of supporters is something that as many people as possible can agree with. So statements where they’re trying to find the common ground between the disparate views, and this AI actually will spit back out okay, this many people agreed or didn’t do that. And and people can refine it until they find a common ground that 90% of I agree with.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 39:32
Does it work by analyzing natural language?

Scott Newton 39:36
No, so it’s about it’s it’s more of a process of call and response. So it’ll people will prepare some kind of comment, it will survey people to see what people thought of how how much they supported that comment that gets back back to the person who wrote it, and then they can continue to refine it and see what other people are writing. And then in the end, you kind of emerged with the comment that more people can agree with and perhaps polarized views that were first expressed on that on that system. So I think that kind of that that incentive pace, the fact that you actually incentivizing people to build consensus is the thing that’s perhaps missing on in online spaces at the moment. And so that that is the kind of thing that interests me in the could we get to a point where, yeah, people can convene their own conversations without need for a facilitator. I think frameworks for conversations also help with that, you know, so things like kitchen table conversations as a technique that’s used, we people get a booklet that they can take an invite their neighbors over and sit around the kitchen table and move through that conversation as it’s outlined in the booklet. And that’s kind of a way that you can design people through a process without a facilitator being present. But then I think the other thing that we’re really trying to do in that space is is train more facilitators, but also community champions so trying to find people in everyday people in the community who can learn enough of these techniques that they can convene more meaningful, constructive, supportive, nurturing conversations and guides their small groups towards decisions and action without needing to call on an expert to do it. So I think the more that we do that the more that people learn these skills. Yeah, hopefully we are having more constructive conversations.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 41:22
That’s awesome. Thanks for all this information. But no, with you, Mel of conflicts and issues between all kinds of organizations and entities and people in the world. I don’t think facilities are going to disappear anytime soon. Do you think that in the time that facilitators have existed, there’s already an obvious impact of this profession you think it’s candles already be seen that in somehow changing the world a bit the fact that this actually people on the planet whose job it is to solve conflicts, Pookie people to get in the room and have them talk together?

Scott Newton 41:59
That’s a really interesting question. I would say it’s inevitable in the sense that you have enough facilitators in corporate in government and in community conversations, convening these meetings and workshops, then obviously, yeah, you could you could link a whole lot of action to things that have been supported by facilitators. But But look, I’m probably, of the mind that we’re we’re really far away from, at this point, facilitators having a really meaningful impact. The main reason being that a lot of the key decisions in our world are made by people who are either incentivized by money or by or by political gain, you know, so I think the very well intentioned people holding positions of power who genuinely want to support the people get bogged down in political winds in order to maintain impel and protect themselves from from media slander from, you know, other judgments because of short term impact on long term decisions they’re trying to make. And so I think as long as that system existed, it is as long as politics plays a key role in decision making, that is not something that you can tease out in in workshops, because everything’s not on the table. People can talk about, okay, well, he’s the expertise that exists. He’s, you know, the views of different stakeholders that we need to take into account. But what you can’t really have a constructive conversation around is, we’re going to take all this and we’re going to consider this and make a recommendation to this politician who’s going to make the decision. You can also say, oh, by the way, look, it’s in that person’s electorate. And obviously, that means that you know, they need to throw some money at this in the short term so that they can secure enough voters for next election. So really, when we’re talking about the best place to put this thing, one of them’s gonna have to go in this electric because that’s good for voters. So in that moment, you’re kind of pulling the rug out from under this really complex system and all these factors that are being considered, because there’s now this political angle that really shouldn’t exist there because it doesn’t necessarily lead to the best outcome for people in that decision. But it’s something that the the politician is making the decision is weighing up. So I think we need to take some of the politics out of big policy decisions. And in Australia, we can see that with, with things like climate change that we’ve sat on for a long time, and, and the RG bar g around that effect has become a political couple, has really slowed down any bipartisan progress. And I think if we had taken the politics out of that earlier, if politicians recognize when something was going to be hated by their political struggles, and so they needed to hand that off to a more less biased group, so for example, deliberative democracy, which you experienced in the bar and model, where citizens who are randomly selected and representative of the community come together and hear from experts and And will involve to help prepare some recommendations. Those kind of less bias processes, by the people for the people with the aid of experts and politicians helping frame the debate that is only going to help us get to better decisions and therefore make facilitators work more valuable. But as long as politics is playing a large role, I don’t think that I think we’re capped at what we can do is facilitate with.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 45:28
Right, the political game, eternal blockage. And maybe a question I should asked you at the very beginning of this interview, but why do you love to be a faciliator?

Scott Newton 45:42
Yeah, look, I think it’s coming out throughout the interview. I think I believe that I believe in people. And I get frustrated when when good decisions are being made. So I think those two things combined lead me to the idea that if I can help empower people to move through things that more efficiently and constructively and lead to an outcome that they can all sign off on, then I’m happy. So I’m hoping that, yeah, through law, if I can continue to do more of that and just kind of come in at the right time to help really set people off in the right direction, and then step back again. And I will and I love that I can do it in all different rooms, like just the rooms have been a fly on the wall on like, everything from low Council of Australia to the Australian Republic movement to New South Wales health to, you know, university students to counsel employees, the stuff I’ve seen and heard is just so disparate, that I really love that opportunity. So So yeah, I intend to just keep doing more of that. That sounds amazing. Thank you so much for you and says, Scott, can we find you somewhere online? Yeah, look, I think, at this stage, the best way that people can contact me is through my email. So Scott newton@live.com Today you but I am I’m about to go on a six month sabbatical, which I’m looking forward to but when I return, I We’ll be setting up a consultancy called gauge consulting ga UGA. And I’m looking forward to doing work that way. So if anyone wants to reach out to me at that email address happy for you to add that to the bottom of the email for now. Yeah, I would be very happy to just, you know, have a coffee, have a chat, understand what challenges people are dealing with or if they’re interested in facilitation, what they want to know more about, and help people out whoever I can.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 47:27
I hope y’all heard that Scott is inviting you to contact him. I hope you understand this is an opportunity, thanks so much, Scott.

Scott Newton 47:34
Thank you so much for having me. Cyprien. Hope to see you in more workshops on both sides.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 47:39
You might

Scott Newton 47:41
Take care, survive the heat you do.

Cyprien (FutureSeeds) 47:48
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